The Honest Take

THT Marcus Sheff — corrected transcript
English (US)

00:00:00.120 — 00:00:38.880 · Marcus Sheff
It starts in the very first grade. So using the Arabic letter ha to teach two words: hujum, which is to, um, to attack, and and shahid, which is a martyr. You know, you're talking about 6 or 7 year olds. It's starting right at the beginning. They're starting with young children who have none of these ideas in their head.

But but let me tell you, after eight, nine, ten, 12 years of Palestinian Authority education, they have all of these ideas in their head. And imagine how hard it is for those ideas to be removed. Pretty much impossible.

00:00:42.360 — 00:01:10.130 · Ben Chertoff
Welcome to The Honest Take, the show that goes past the headlines to find out what's actually true about Israel, and about the people covering it. I'm Ben Chertoff and my guest today is Marcus Sheff, the man who reads the schoolbooks of the Middle East line by line, so nobody can say they didn't know what's in them.

And today we're not just reading the worst pages out loud. We're asking why they're still there and who could rewrite them.

00:01:15.290 — 00:03:48.830 · Ben Chertoff
There's a fourth grade math problem in the Palestinian Authority schoolbooks. Not apples, not oranges. Martyrs from the First Intifada and from the second. Add them up. There's a physics lesson on Newton's second law, illustrated with a kid aiming a slingshot at Israeli soldiers. And in the first grade, one letter of the Arabic alphabet is taught with two words attack and martyr.

About 1.3 million Palestinian children learn from these books, and before the war in Gaza, nearly 300,000 of them learned it in schools run by the United Nations. Now, you've probably heard the story told as outrage, and today we're going to tell it as accountability because these books are rewritten every year.

And they didn't always look like this. Before 2016, they taught the Israel-Egypt peace treaty, the Israel-Jordan peace treaty, at least the idea that peace was possible. Then they were taken out. When Hamas ran Gaza's schools, it didn't change a word. And when the UN's own review told UNRWA to stop using this material, it kept using it.

So every year that these books come back, the same isn't an accident, it's a decision. A Palestinian prime minister told his own cabinet he'd pay for the textbooks out of the water and electricity money before he changed the curriculum. Here's what Marcus wants you to know. It doesn't have to be this way.

The Emirates rebuilt their curriculum around respect for the other. Saudi Arabia has spent six years stripping anti-Semitism out of its schoolbooks. In Morocco, the textbooks show a Muslim family at a Jewish Shabbat dinner, and he points to Germany, where after the war, the schools were rebuilt. Root and branch.

His word for all of this is banal. School is the most ordinary thing in a child's life, which is exactly why it works. He's a former reporter and editor at The Jerusalem Post, and today he runs IMPACT-se, the Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School Education. He's testified before Congress on what UNRWA teaches, and his team reads every line of every book, in every subject, in every grade.

Marcus Sheff, welcome to The Honest Take.

00:03:48.870 — 00:03:49.990 · Marcus Sheff
Thank you so much, Ben.

00:03:50.030 — 00:04:11.600 · Ben Chertoff
Before we get into any of this, you were a political reporter, then an editor at The Jerusalem Post, a foreign correspondent and then ran a communications firm. None of that reads. You know, I read schoolbooks for a living. Can you take me through the turn? How did you get from journalism into into what you're doing now?

00:04:12.080 — 00:05:57.420 · Marcus Sheff
Sure. Well, you know, I think I can just tell you why IMPACT-se is so important to me. And I think this might resonate with with other folks as well. You know, I think we all understand that textbooks are uniquely authoritative, and textbooks carry the values, the identities that states wish to pass down to the next generation, but which we adults wish to pass down to the next generation.

And through textbooks, we create societies of the future. You know, this is particularly the case in the MENA region and also in Europe. I know less in the US where textbooks aren't necessarily the primary means of teaching. But here in the Middle East, MENA being the Middle East and North Africa, of course you get one book, one grade, one subject, and they are rewritten every year.

And it is through these textbooks that teachers teach that which the ministries of education have approved that year. There is not much wiggle room. And so, you know, the power of textbooks to create those societies that we want to live in, those societies which are peaceful, which are tolerant, which are accepting of the other is absolutely tremendous.

And, you know, understanding that. And I was absolutely drawn to the mission of IMPACT-se and the mission to make sure that tens of millions, hundreds of millions of children are brought up with the values which we all think are important and not, of course, to be radicalized, to be indoctrinated.

00:05:57.460 — 00:06:26.460 · Ben Chertoff
Yeah, I really hope Americans do grasp how how central these textbooks are. I mean, I think they will, especially since how much, um, controversy has surrounded some attempts at rewriting textbooks here in the US. Um, as a practical point, um, and this is my own curiosity, how do you get these textbooks to study, especially the ones that are coming out of active war zones and closed educational systems?

Mhm.

00:06:26.740 — 00:07:39.550 · Marcus Sheff
It's a really good question. Um, and you know, I think the the answer is it really depends on the country. In some countries textbooks are um available digitally. In some countries they are available. But you know, they are print editions in some countries, um, they're really quite hard to get hold of.

And so, um, you know, we have learned over the years how to get hold of those textbooks, how to, um, make sure that we have full sets. Um, but it is not always easy. Let's let's be absolutely clear about that. You know, we don't cherry-pick. We look at every line of every book, of every subject, of every grade. And so, you know, think of grades or years 1 to 12.

Um, imagine that you are talking about multiple subjects. You know, you're probably talking about 350 textbooks in a year, which need to be studied. And so getting hold of those textbooks is not always, as I say, obvious. But we, you know, we do know how to do this. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes we have to go the extra mile.

00:07:39.550 — 00:07:50.630 · Ben Chertoff
When you get a stack of textbooks, let's say a few hundred books, what do you and your analysts actually do with them? What's the practical modality of looking into this?

00:07:51.960 — 00:11:23.710 · Marcus Sheff
Well, I think the key thing is how we look at the textbooks. And so we're looking at them through particular international standards of peace and tolerance. Um, those are respect for the other respect for the individual other. Peacemaking is the way to resolve conflicts. No hate, no incitement. Gender equality and other forms of equality.

Historical accuracy. Such an important measurement, and looking through all of those standards is the job of the initial researcher. That is to say, the researcher that will get, um, a textbook, five, ten, 15 textbooks, and over a period of time go through every line, every page. And having done that will write up a report.

Now that report goes to the person who is ultimately going to be the author of the report, and that that person is sitting with for each textbook, a report on that particular textbook. So it could be social studies, grade four. And now multiply that by all of the social studies curriculum. Multiply that by all the subjects.

That's a lot of book reports. And that person that author will bring together all of these book reports and make sense out of it. And this is the the art which goes along with the science. The science is going through line by line and looking at the whole textbook through those standards, which I mentioned.

The art is kind of stepping back a little bit. Looking at the book reports, looking at the, um, that information which the researchers have gleaned from the textbooks and, um, thinking to to his or herself. Okay, what am I looking at here? Um, what is the, um, theme of this corpus of curriculum of this mass of curriculum that I have in front of me?

And we'll begin writing, um, the report based on that. Now, for instance, the Syrian report, which is going to come out in 2 or 3 weeks' time. It's 300 pages long and something like, I think 60,000 words. So, you know, they they get to be quite weighty, but that is the only way to do it. And if you really want to understand the curriculum, which means, quite frankly, if you really want to understand how this country that we are looking at is going to be in 5 or 10 years' time, and I will counter that, then you have to do it that way.

There is no other way. Why am I saying this tells you what the country is going to be like in five, ten years' time? Because textbooks are remarkable political predictors. It's as simple as that. What children are taught today in classrooms all over the world is a pretty good indication of what the country is going to be like in in ten years' time.

You know, if you are 14 and looking at the curriculum, ten years' time you're 24 and a fully fit member of society. And that which you were taught ten years ago is these other identities, these are the values which, um, the state or the institution wishes to pass down to you.

00:11:23.710 — 00:11:46.120 · Ben Chertoff
And, and these standards which you just talked about, that you are grading these textbooks against that. You didn't just make these up. I mean, these are UNESCO's own standards. The UN body. Who who makes these standards? Have they um. Have they ever said anything or done anything about your findings.

00:11:47.120 — 00:13:00.650 · Marcus Sheff
It's a really good question. They are indeed UNESCO standards and 1 or 2 actual UN standards. So taken from the General Assembly, but majoritively, absolutely right. Taken from the the UNESCO Assembly. And UNESCO is, you know, an interesting organization. Um, let's put it that way. Uh, they, um, do not necessarily feel free themselves to look at individual countries for political reasons.

They are constrained. Uh, as you can imagine. And so, um, you know, we don't have that constraint and we are quite happy to plow on and do any work that we want to do. We are absolutely independent. We are independent of any state. And UNESCO is is not. UNESCO is a UN organization, um, which is driven by the nation states which make up the plenary of UNESCO.

and so they cannot do what we do. And there is, I would imagine, interest. Um, you know, conversations have been had with UNESCO, but they, you know, do what they do and we do what we do.

00:13:00.890 — 00:13:22.890 · Ben Chertoff
Let's get into the actual meat of the discussion here and, and the books themselves. Um, what is actually in them, some of the more problematic stuff that you've come up with, which is not just, you know, these aren't isolated incidents. There's a there's a fourth grade math problem that you that you discuss.

Can you explain? You know, what does that look like on the page?

00:13:24.290 — 00:13:34.890 · Marcus Sheff
So I think you're you're specifically referring to the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. So that fourth grade math problem and it takes a,

00:13:35.930 — 00:14:04.980 · Marcus Sheff
um, exercise. And in that exercise it asks young people: X number of martyrs, terrorists essentially, were killed in the First Intifada, X in, or Y, sorry, in in the Second Intifada. Um, how many martyrs, terrorists, do we have? And you know, in that there is a world. So first of all, clearly they could use apples and oranges.

00:14:05.260 — 00:14:12.820 · Ben Chertoff
Yeah. This isn't this isn't an example. This isn't a history example about the Intifadas themselves. This is math.

00:14:13.940 — 00:17:45.450 · Marcus Sheff
Yeah. Exactly. Absolutely. Right. And I think it's it's worth drilling down into that a little bit. Um, use of STEM subjects. Um, but, you know, ultimately when you look at that and when you then understand the use of this example and the reason for the use of example as a worldview opens up, and that is the worldview of the Palestinian Authority in relation to its school curriculum and that view, and after looking at this for, for so many years, I think sadly, we've only come to to one conclusion that the Palestinian Authority sees its school curriculum as a as a strategy, a strategy to maintain, um, a level of what they would call muqawama, resistance and a constant indoctrination across all grades and across all subjects.

Why use STEM? Why use math? Because you can. Because it's there. Because it is available. So let's shove indoctrination into math, which has, as you say, absolutely nothing to do with history, the Intifadas, or any other part of the school curriculum. And we've seen this, by the way, repeated in other science examples and the use of a a young person holding a slingshot.

And that slingshot is aimed at Israeli soldiers. And the exercise is about Newton's second law. So using a a physics example, again, in order to indoctrinate young people. And what is the indoctrination precisely? It is saying very clearly to young people who are looking at this, um, on their desks, you must become part of the resistance.

You must endanger yourself, you 14 year old, because that is the age of the person who is reading this. You 14 year old boy or girl, must endanger yourselves. And for us, for the Palestinian Authority and the Palestinian Authority is using a physics example in order to do that, as they did with maths. But it starts earlier.

It starts in the very first grade. So using the Arabic letter ha, um, to teach, um, two words: hujum, which is, um, to, um, to attack, and and shahid, which is a martyr. You know, you're talking about 6 or 7 year olds who are being taught a letter in their first year in school, in a manner of indoctrination. The starting right at the beginning, they're starting with young children who have none of these ideas in their head.

But but let me tell you, after eight, nine, ten, 12 years of Palestinian Authority education, they have all of these ideas in their head. And imagine how hard it is for those ideas to be removed. Pretty much impossible. Deradicalization is extraordinarily difficult. And we're talking about 1.3 million Palestinian children in various school programs who are being taught this.

Day after day, month after month, year after year.

00:17:45.490 — 00:18:20.330 · Ben Chertoff
Your July report pulled from an eighth grade Arabic textbook that's still in use, a story that lionized fighters who strapped on explosive belts and turned their bodies into fire. Daggers, daggers landing, quote, on the necks of the enemy soldiers. I mean, it's it's astounding. And the line we shall not forget the burnt, the the image of a burnt Zionist soldier.

These are eighth graders. And that's not an archive that's current. Um, I mean, like, how is this still being taught in 2026?

00:18:21.410 — 00:19:40.670 · Marcus Sheff
It's a really good question. And you look at that image, um, that you that you bring up and you recall, um, October the 7th and you see the connection between the two. Um, and this is something that we had warned about for, for years and years. For years and years. We said very, very clearly, if you teach young people that jihad and martyrdom are the most important meanings in life, that you need to sacrifice yourself for the resistance.

Jews are liars and fraudsters who should be removed. If you teach them to cut the necks of the enemy, as you refer to. Now throw all this together and imagine, year after year of education, education, of being taught these examples, being taught these ideas. And then look at October the 7th. And there is, um, you know, absolutely no doubt in our minds that the Palestinian Authority's education was a key element in those attacks, was a key element in creating a population who were capable of doing these terrible things.

00:19:40.670 — 00:20:03.030 · Ben Chertoff
And it seems like it's getting worse, not better. Um, your, your Palestinian Authority review from November found that some of the references to peace plans and peace initiatives that had been in the books were removed. Um, like, it's obviously that's intentional.

00:20:04.190 — 00:23:16.860 · Marcus Sheff
It's clearly intentional. It's strategic. And we always say that the Palestinian Authority is curriculum. And I would like to, you know, be able to to talk later about, um, curricula which are improving around the region. There's a plethora of them. And, you know, in the sense that Palestinian Authority's curriculum is the outlier.

It is not the, um, the norm in the region. Um, but yes. No, absolutely. It was a strategic decision which was clearly made by the Palestinian Authority to radicalize further its school curriculum. It was never great, let's not kid ourselves, but there were, before 2016, there were ideas of peacemaking, and there were peace agreements within the curriculum.

The Israel-Egypt peace agreement, the Israel-Jordan peace agreement, the Wye Accords were all in the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. So at least it gave young Palestinians an idea that peacemaking is possible. They all went. They were taken out. And, you know, that doesn't happen by accident. That's not happenstance.

That is a a strategic decision which was made at the top. And we know absolutely that it was made at the top. And so what was left actually, was this, if you like, dismissive, um, part of the Oslo Accords where essentially young Palestinians are told, you know, there was this attempt, but it, you know, didn't serve our purposes.

They even doctored the letter that Yasser Arafat wrote to Rabin talking about, um, you know, an end to violence. And they doctored it, so they doctored, if you like, the letter of their own leader, because it was it had elements which were not hateful enough towards Israel, towards the Jews. And so, you know, this is, um, you know, clearly something which was, um, created strategically, created comprehensively across grades and across subjects.

Um, and it emerged in, in 2016, then 2017, then 2018, and, and then we saw what we're seeing today. Since then, there has been hardly any change at all to the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. 2016 was grades 1 to 4, 2017, 5 to 10. And the last two grades, the Tawjihi, the matriculation, came out in 2018, and all of this was done under the international spotlight.

You know, the international community. Um, it was not then and it's not now unaware of the Palestinian authorities curriculum. And, you know, we were all aware that representatives of the international community and in Jerusalem and in Ramallah were liaising with the Palestinian Authority while this curriculum was being created.

They were aware of its creation. And clearly, if they made any effort at all in order to create a better, more peaceful curriculum, they failed entirely, didn't they?

00:23:16.900 — 00:23:36.550 · Ben Chertoff
Yeah. In fact, UNRWA itself is using these, uh, using these materials to teach in UNRWA's schools. Can you go into the knowledge that the UN has through UNRWA, which is a UN organization that is propagating these ideas and this material.

00:23:38.310 — 00:24:46.959 · Marcus Sheff
So I think, you know, UNRWA is the most appalling element in this story because, as you quite rightly say, it is a UN organization. It is, at least theoretically, not a Palestinian organization. And they are, um, supposed to be aligned with UNESCO values, with UNESCO. Sorry, with, with also UNESCO, but UN values and and rules and um, you know, that is clearly not the case.

The Palestinian Authority's curriculum is taught by the Palestinian Authority in Judea and Samaria. It is um, it was taught by the Palestinian Authority in Gaza until, um, Hamas took over and then, um, their schools went to Hamas, but the majority of schools in Gaza are UNRWA schools because the majority of the population of Gaza, according to UNRWA's rules, are refugees.

And so imagine let me take you back to October the 7th and to those thousands of people

00:24:48.000 — 00:25:14.959 · Marcus Sheff
committing acts of terror, murder, rape, burning, abduction of young, abduction of old. The majority of them went to UNRWA schools because those are the majority of schools in Gaza. And you don't have to be a great statistician to work out that that was the case. And there is a complicity in UNRWA's refusal to change its curriculum

00:25:16.040 — 00:26:31.460 · Marcus Sheff
after being asked year after year, by so many voices and time and time again, they said, no, no, this is the curriculum that we have to teach. There is no reason why they have to teach it. It is not written down anywhere. They claim it is. They made up some rule about the host nation curriculum. It is, it is not, not in any document that anybody can find. In fact, UN organizations all over the world teach what they think they need to teach, in, in the best.

Um, you know, for the, that that which is best for the children in that area. And UNRWA has always been an exception in that. They have absolutely insisted on teaching this material and again, what is that? What are they teaching? They're teaching a very clear message. There will be one state, Palestine, from the river to the sea, which will be gained by jihad, martyrdom and violence and sacrifice.

Your sacrifice, you young students sitting at this desk today, it is your sacrifice that will gain this. This is a UN organization. And even after October the 7th, we saw no contrition at all. No voice from UNRWA after October the 7th ever turned around and said, well,

00:26:32.620 — 00:26:33.500 · Marcus Sheff
you know, we are.

00:26:34.980 — 00:26:43.500 · Ben Chertoff
We are. You have hard evidence that there that that some of these people who committed these atrocities were UNRWA students.

00:26:44.620 — 00:28:56.640 · Marcus Sheff
We have hard evidence that some of them were students. We have hard evidence that many of them were employees. Right. So, you know, there's evidence of teachers, there's evidence of school principals, school principals who, you know, were part of this. Um, there are evidence of person after person, so many, in fact, that the US is now taking action because so many UNRWA employees were involved in October 7th.

These are not, you know, a few bad apples. This is the whole barrel absolutely stinking with anti-Semitism, with incitement to violence and acts like October the 7th. And by the way, UNRWA has created some of its own material over the years. And that material itself, you know, you would imagine. Okay.

Um, they said we have no choice. We have to teach the Palestinian Authority curriculum. But when we create our own curriculum, it's going to be absolutely fine. It's going to meet all those UNESCO standards, right? Not not so much. They created a material which includes just one example, which always sticks in my mind, um, where they refer to an attack on a bus of Israeli civilians as a, as a [ASR - unresolved], as a barbecue party.

Wow. And this is UNRWA itself, creating material which considers the burning of Jews as a barbecue party. Again, UN organization, an organization which is financed by the international community and they feel absolutely fine teaching this stuff. And by the way. The international community is and has over the last few years dropped their funding to UNRWA considerably because, you know, it's just become absolutely clear that the organization is not fit for purpose, that they have abrogated their duty of care if they ever had one.

And I'm just not entirely sure that they have one in the first place. And, you know, they they in good conscience don't feel that they can finance this anymore.

00:28:56.680 — 00:29:07.040 · Ben Chertoff
They, um, I mean, yeah, this is paid for by US tax dollars for everyone who complains about tax dollars going to Israel. This is also going to UNRWA.

00:29:07.800 — 00:29:45.090 · Marcus Sheff
I mean the, the US and we were you know, we testified in Congress, um, to make sure that the the evidence was in front of the the lawmakers and, and very soon after that the, the US did withdraw all its funding, $400 million to to UNRWA. And, um, you know, that that made perfect sense at the time. It makes perfect sense now, we, you know, clearly, um, one cannot imagine that any administration in the future would ever want to give that money back to UNRWA either.

But one must be, you know, aware, um, that, you know, these things are always possible.

00:29:45.210 — 00:30:03.170 · Ben Chertoff
Uh, you mentioned you alluded to this, that, um, there that the UNRWA example is an outlier. Is there any other example of a UN sponsored, uh, education program that so blatantly goes against UNESCO's own standards?

00:30:03.970 — 00:30:37.740 · Marcus Sheff
No, nothing that we've seen. No. Um, you know, we we are aware of, you know, the UN operates all over the world and it operates through different agencies. Um, you know, from UNICEF to, um, you know, a bunch of a bunch of organizations. and there are also, you know, clearly non-UN organizations operating in the refugee and aid sphere all over the world.

And we have not seen one example of any of them, um, knowingly, purposefully teaching hate.

00:30:38.780 — 00:30:48.380 · Marcus Sheff
And you know, even saying that is kind of obvious. What what aid organization would go out there and, and purposefully teach hate.

00:30:48.460 — 00:30:57.140 · Ben Chertoff
Oh, right. Right. Is there any is there any reference in any of these materials to coexistence, to a two state solution to to peace?

00:30:58.260 — 00:31:33.470 · Marcus Sheff
None, none at all. I mean, there are there are references to to peace, but never references to peace with, with Israel, with Jews. It's just it's an amorphous concept. Um, you know, peace is good, but. But are children in Palestinian schools ever taught about the possibility of peace with Israel? No. Absolutely not.

On the contrary, they are taught again this, this vision, which is the opposite of peace. It is, you know, a Palestine from river to sea going through violence. And they are a part of that.

00:31:33.510 — 00:31:39.750 · Ben Chertoff
It says something too that Hamas was okay with teaching that same curriculum. They didn't change it.

00:31:40.750 — 00:32:10.630 · Marcus Sheff
It's a really interesting point, and one which we bring up a lot with policymakers. They didn't change a jot or a tittle, as they say. They didn't change one word of it. They were absolutely happy. Go teach this. Yeah. So and and you know, as you know, they are you know, they come from a, um, a Muslim Brotherhood, um, genesis, a Muslim Brotherhood perspective and yet really happy to teach the Palestinian authorities curriculum created in Ramallah by Fatah.

00:32:12.110 — 00:32:15.189 · Ben Chertoff
You were invited to talk to the

00:32:16.830 — 00:32:27.680 · Ben Chertoff
talk to the UN. And, um, after UNRWA staff were implicated. Um. You testified. What? What did you tell the committee?

00:32:29.160 — 00:34:05.690 · Marcus Sheff
Well, there was a committee set up by Madame Colonna. She was the former French foreign minister, then a deputy at the United Nations, um, who was tasked with investigating UNRWA. Now, first of all, this is the UN investigating itself, right? And and having accepted that, the parameters were really quite narrow.

The parameters were neutrality. And there is a lot more to this issue than the issue of neutrality. But still, um, we spent a lot of time with Madame Colonna and her colleagues. We went through all of the issues, and a report was written. And UNRWA was instructed in the report to take certain steps. Pretty much didn't happen.

And this is you know, we're now what I think. Um, two and a half years on. And yet, um, those changes have not been made. And UNRWA moved the goalposts. You know, they said they they did something else which wasn't connected with what they were asked to do in the first place. And so, you know, all in all, a, um, a complete failure of UNRWA to heed the words of what was quite a, a narrow UN report at the end of the day and an internal one at that.

You know, we were gratified to be asked. We were the only nonprofit to be asked to testify. Um, you know, I can't say I had great hopes that, you know, UNRWA was going to, you know, suddenly put its hand on its heart and say, we have to make these changes. Um, and yeah, they did not.

00:34:05.810 — 00:34:24.540 · Ben Chertoff
The the criticism of this argument or the or the pushback is that, um, okay. But if UNRWA wasn't there, there'd be no education. That seems kind of hollow, because this isn't. I mean, these are PDFs. It's not. This doesn't seem like a difficult thing to change.

00:34:25.419 — 00:35:25.030 · Marcus Sheff
Yeah. I mean, yeah, first of all, absolutely, changing it is is a matter of, you know, real ease. There is, you know, curricular change all the time. The Palestinian curriculum, um, you know, is taught in a couple of places, but by, obviously not by, the Palestinian Authority. Um, in a version which is, um, which is not hostile, which is, um, which does not indoctrinate.

And it is relatively easy to do. Schoolbooks are relatively easy to produce. You know, imagine there are, what, something like 2 billion children all over the world in school. So it's not like the world does not have experience in how to produce textbooks. And these are kind of Finnish magazine types, not like the the books behind me and the books, you know, that I was brought up with in a, in a British school.

And so, you know, changing them is a matter of ease. Yes, absolutely. Um. And yet, no. They they at no point said yes. We will take this on. We will make these changes.

00:35:26.030 — 00:35:39.670 · Ben Chertoff
There has been there has been, you know, strong requirements by the UN that this happens. And it seems like this is a this is a recurring thing that they say you have to change this and and then nothing changes. What what will it take to enforce.

00:35:39.670 — 00:35:40.430 · Marcus Sheff
This

00:35:42.030 — 00:37:05.480 · Marcus Sheff
is a really good question. And it's a question we ask ourselves. Um, and I think, you know, if the curriculum that we have seen, that we see today is a curriculum created because of a political will, because of a political strategy, because of a desire by the Palestinian leadership to make sure that they are indoctrinating 1.3 million children every single day.

Um, then it has to be changed from the top of the Palestinian pyramid. That makes it absolutely clear: we need a new curriculum, and there are a surplus of examples all over the Middle East. Of the kind of material they they could produce if they had the will. Um, so far, no will. But the answer to your question is that's what it will take.

Um, political will. This is not a pedagogical question. This is a political question. This realm of textbooks in the Middle East is a is a political realm. And, um, no, um, no more so than the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. It has been under the microscope, us and others. Um, year on year for so long now.

And yet the resistance to change, um, is such a strong indication of the politics which lies behind this curriculum.

00:37:05.520 — 00:37:19.890 · Ben Chertoff
I think that this would be, uh, something that would be brought up critically, or at least a question that would be brought up critically. Um, have you ever turned that same methodology on Israeli textbooks? And if so, what did you find?

00:37:20.770 — 00:41:27.810 · Marcus Sheff
Yeah, absolutely. We look at the Israeli curriculum and, um, I think we can honestly say, um, more comprehensively than any other curriculum that we look at. You know, the difference is that other curricula in the region are changed actually twice a year, two semesters, twice a year. The Israeli curriculum is more like the European model.

And so, you know, a textbook gets changed maybe every 6 or 7 or 8 years. And also the system is entirely different. And textbooks in, um, Israel, with 1 or 2 exceptions, are not produced by the state, by the Ministry of Education. They're produced by publishers who, um, then go to the Ministry of Education in, in order to get a certification.

And then school principals, um, make a decision about, you know, which textbooks are going to be used in their schools. Um, so very much like the French example, for instance, three big publishers. They are competing, um, to get into the schools. The Israeli system is is very close to that. I guess the one exception is the famous civics textbook in Israel, which is produced by the Ministry of Education and and which has not changed for, for the last, um, 7 or 8 years and more.

And, um, I think the answer to your question is the Israeli curriculum is, uh, adheres to those UNESCO standards. Um, it sees peacemaking as the way to resolve conflict in increasing levels of complexity as you go up the school year. So, you know, little kids are taught to sing songs of peace. And as you go up in the school year, the questions and the ideas become more complex.

They are asked to understand what peace means, how it can be gained if it can be gained. There is a great deal of critical thinking in the Israeli curriculum, um, which is very much part of the Jewish tradition as well. So, you know, within textbooks about, for instance, peacemaking, you know, robust arguments can be expected and are expected in the schoolroom.

Um, there is a great deal of respect for the Israeli others. And so, you know, clearly, Israeli Arabs are the, the major other, um, both, um, Christian Muslim and Jews as well. Uh, and these others are taught to Israelis, who they are, what their customs are. But ideas go well beyond religion to, to the political.

So Israeli children are, um, taught about political complexity. They are, for instance, in this civics textbook, you know, the famous civics textbook that I alluded to of the Ministry of Education, in that textbook they are offered a Palestinian perspective of 1948. They're essentially told, you know, this is, if you like, the Zionist perspective of 1948.

Um, you know, UN declares, um, you know, makes a declaration. Um, nascent Israel, attacked by five armies and battles won. Israel emerges. But they're also taught a Palestinian view, um, of, and they are specifically told about Palestinians who either um left or were forced to leave their homes. So, um, you know, quite a, a hardcore education for young Israelis in the middle of a conflict.

And so, by the way, if anyone says you, you, you can't teach these ideas, um, in conflict. Well, Israeli kids are bang in the middle of a conflict. They are, running to shelters. They, you know, God forbid, lost friends over the last period of time. You know, they are immersed in this conflict. And yet in school, they're taught peacemaking.

They're taught other people's perspectives. They're taught to respect the other. And it's quite a remarkable school curriculum, actually.

00:41:28.810 — 00:41:57.810 · Ben Chertoff
To go back to the difficulty that that we face in terms of getting any sort of lasting change here. Um, the Palestinian prime minister stood up in a cabinet meeting and told and said, you can cut off our water and our energy before we will change our school curriculum. I mean, that that paints a pretty bleak picture about the possibility of change here.

I mean, how negotiable is this?

00:41:58.890 — 00:43:44.030 · Marcus Sheff
No, it isn't. And exactly that line. And that goes back to what I'm saying about, you know, this comes from the top. It's political. And even above him, you know. Abu Mazen was presented this curriculum by by the Ministry of Education in 2016, um, in the Muqata'a. And knowing, you know, exactly what the zeitgeist, what the philosophy of his curriculum was because he, you know, he was part of the process and as you say, absolutely.

The Palestinian prime minister, in a cabinet meeting in Arabic, says to his colleagues exactly that which you stated. And this is not then about education, is it? This is not about pedagogy. This is absolutely political. This is absolutely strategic. This is absolutely we need to indoctrinate generation after generation of young Palestinian Palestinian to be part of the struggle, not to be part of peacemaking.

There is never a horizon of the possibility of peace. There is only ever the horizon of conflict and, in their view, ultimate victory, but conflict. You know, one thing we always think about, about the school curriculum, and what we always notice, um, is how dark it is. You know, school curricula aren't necessarily dark. In fact,

And they can be really quite light and lovely and, and, and, um, you know, have really warm, um, ideas running through them, which, you know, make young people feel, feel loved and feel, you know, a part of something bigger than themselves in a really positive way. Palestinian curriculum, that doesn't happen.

It is. It is dark. It is, um, you know, dangerous because.

00:43:44.070 — 00:43:56.350 · Ben Chertoff
Yeah, imagine the outrage if an American, you know, first grade textbook was teaching that dying in in war is the ultimate sacrifice. It would be like.

00:43:57.510 — 00:44:13.080 · Marcus Sheff
Dying is better than living is the the piece of the exercise that you are referring to that in fact, it's dying as a as a martyr is better than living a a long and peaceful good life.

00:44:13.120 — 00:44:15.560 · Ben Chertoff
And how old are the kids who are learning this?

00:44:16.640 — 00:44:33.760 · Marcus Sheff
Um, I'm not sure what grade that comes from. It's one of the higher grades. Um, and it is, you know, just again, what a dark, sinister idea that is. Your death is more valuable to us than any possibility of you living a quiet, happy, meaningful life.

00:44:33.800 — 00:45:00.840 · Ben Chertoff
It really speaks to the, uh, you know, we've talked a bunch on this on the show with other guests, Charles Small, for instance, about, like, the failure of imagination of the West to see how deep these ideas are and how different it is from, you know, this isn't this isn't people who are in an unfortunate economic situation who are rising up against oppression.

This is just so deeply embedded.

00:45:02.000 — 00:45:15.250 · Ben Chertoff
Um, you you don't just study the Middle East. You've turned those same standards on Europe, on France, Sweden, Greece, Hungary, Ireland. What are you finding in Europe? What? What way is Europe moving?

00:45:15.650 — 00:48:14.710 · Marcus Sheff
Europe, um, is a mixed bag. I think it's fair to say, you know, you're, um. You know, we were pretty interested in how they look at, um, Jews, Judaism, anti-Semitism, um, you know, particularly because of the the rise of hate on the European continent. Um, and because, you know, we made an assumption that they would be fairly aligned with those other UNESCO standards.

And, and I think, you know, vary from country to country. And many countries are doing quite a good job. And so, you know, I would put Germany in that category, I would put Hungary in that category, and Sweden, Greece, these are countries that are doing a fairly good job, and there are countries that are doing a fairly good job, but because of the kind of country they are, they could be doing better.

And so, you know, France actually were put in that category. You know, they do a really decent job of teaching about the Shoah. Um, but and, and other elements, Judaism as a religion. Um, well, they don't teach um, enough, in our view. And we had this conversation with the French Ministry of Education.

And by the way, what we are hoping, expecting to change fairly soon is the inclusion of such a rich Jewish life in France for, you know, well over millennia. And so, you know, that really does need to be included in curricula where that applies, you know, for young French people to understand that Jews have been for a thousand years a part of France, a part of, you know, French culture history.

And, you know, really interesting ideas. So Rashi, um, who, you know, biblical scholar who wrote in Hebrew. But but, you know, Rashi used a great deal of French, medieval French in his commentary. Um, and so, you know, for young people to know that French scholars of medieval French, um, you know, sometimes go to Rashi to look at the vocabulary he uses.

How fascinating is that? And of course, you know, Maimonides, um, Rambam, um, really should be a part of education for, for MENA, um, you know, a person who, um, you know, was was part of the tapestry of Andalusia, um, but but also of Cairo. And, you know, these are whole other conversations that we, that we have with folks.

Um, and so again, you're absolutely mixed bag, right? You know, the the the if you like. The bottom of that mixed bag is Ireland, that, um, has a picture of Auschwitz. If you can believe this, with a P.O.W. camp, a prisoner of war camp. That's disturbing.

00:48:15.910 — 00:51:12.260 · Marcus Sheff
It's really disturbing. And which identifies, um, in in an Irish textbook about religions, Judaism, and of the three religions in it is talking about, um, Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Judaism is the only religion that it lists that, um, sees violence as legitimate and which is, you know, a bizarre position to take.

Um, in so many ways. Um, our report on the Irish curriculum went to the Taoiseach, went to the the Prime Minister of Ireland. Um, you know, we hope changes will be made that. But, you know, there were so many other issues with Ireland that I, I, I'm sure you are well aware of, and people in your show have talked about.

Um, so I think in Europe really the big issue is, um, explaining anti-Semitism. I think, um, young people in Europe increasingly are adopting anti-Semitic ideas, using anti-Semitic memes and tropes and not understanding necessarily that they are, not understanding necessarily that these ideas, tropes, memes have hundreds of years of European history behind them.

You know, the blood libel and the ideas which some of the young Europeans are propagating today are, you know, a direct line to that. They need to understand it. They need to understand what anti-Semitism is and its history, how they are being lied to, essentially sucked into anti-Semitic ideas because it is convenient for the people who are giving them these anti-Semitic ideas, because often leaders, in order to maintain power, or people who want power, use anti-Semitism to do it, and they are being manipulated in that process.

These are ideas which they need to be taught. And, you know, very few countries are teaching about anti-Semitism. I think what's really interesting, by the way, are the 'Stans, as we, as we call them. Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, who, you know, we have as an institute good relations with because they have produced, each one of them, really good curricula.

These are, um, Shia Muslim majority countries who do teach about anti-Semitism, who do teach, um, really well about, uh, Jews and about Judaism and and about the history of the creation of Israel. Um, I think, you know, the Central Asian Shia majority countries could be a real lesson to some of these European countries.

And this is something actually, which, um, you know, we have communicated to some of these countries. Look at this. Learn from this. This is something you could adopt to, in fact.

00:51:12.300 — 00:51:29.020 · Ben Chertoff
And you've alluded to this in, uh, Saudi Arabia. Your review, uh, that came out in July, showed that there was some good news that there is reform and is more move towards coexistence. Can you can you explain what you found there?

00:51:29.700 — 00:51:34.300 · Marcus Sheff
Yeah, absolutely. Um, but if you, with your permission, I'll actually start with the UAE.

00:51:34.300 — 00:51:34.740 · Ben Chertoff
Yes, please.

00:51:34.740 — 00:54:50.620 · Marcus Sheff
Yeah, yeah. I think it's fair to say that, um, educational reform in, um, that part of the world and the Gulf really started with, um, the Emirates and again, the leadership, um, Mohammed bin Zayed, who, you know, absolutely understood the, the need for full education reform, the need to reform textbooks.

Um, and they created a school curriculum, um, which is quite remarkable, which embraces the other which does not contain hate, um, which takes on moderate attitudes, which, um, takes on, um, attitudes of, um, respecting minorities. You know, I think this is very much part of Emirati culture, Emirati thinking, Emirati personality, but it is, you know, quite remarkable, um, to see the evolution of Emirati textbooks and, and, you know, a real pleasure to work with the Emiratis. The Saudis, um, you know, too, a remarkably important country, uh, the country that, you know, holds Mecca and Medina and outside of its own borders.

You know, Saudi Arabia is really important to the Sunni Muslim world. And, um, Saudi Arabia, beginning in 2020, underwent quite a comprehensive reform of its school curriculum, reaching the point today that there is, as you say, no anti-Semitism left in the Saudi Arabian school curriculum, and ideas towards Israel

are moderated. Gender is, um, absolutely improved in the textbooks. Um, really a remarkable evolution of textbooks which, um, embrace those international values that we are talking about. Respect for the other peacemaking is the way to resolve conflict. Um, but if we look all the way across Mena to Morocco, you know, I think Morocco is is also quite a remarkable example.

Um, Morocco produced a curriculum based on its 2011 constitutional reform. Um, and to me, you know, the key element, you know, it absolutely uplifts women and girls. Um, it is in many ways a curriculum which, you know, is, is entirely modern, um, entirely accepting of, of the other. Um, but I think particularly the way it talks about, um, its Jewish community and its Amazigh.

Or, as people used to say, the Berber community in Morocco. Um, you know, I think it's quite lovely, actually. It's it's a curriculum which embraces these communities, which talks about them as a key part of the Moroccan tapestry. There is a picture of a Muslim family at a clearly Jewish Friday night dinner.

Mimouna is talked about. And again we were talking about France and and Rashi. So actually in the Moroccan curriculum, they talk about, um, a group of Jews who have been a key part of, um, you know, Morocco over a period of years. And so, um, you know, really, really impressive.

00:54:50.620 — 00:54:58.460 · Ben Chertoff
And we can see this reflected now in international relations. I mean I think that's a pretty clear, uh, downstream effect.

00:54:59.300 — 00:55:18.700 · Marcus Sheff
Absolutely. And then this brings us back to curricula as both identifying the identities, the values which rulers wish to pass down, but also curricula as political predictors. They are telling us what these communities are going to be like, what these countries are going to be like, um, 8, 9 or 10 years down the line.

00:55:19.700 — 00:55:45.260 · Ben Chertoff
So you have said, uh, that if it happened in Nazi Germany, it can happen in Hamas Gaza. That's that's a hopeful thing to say that. And you're talking about the denazification. Um, and you've spent your career reading the worst material anyone produces. Um, where where does your hope come from?

00:55:47.060 — 00:56:19.269 · Marcus Sheff
My hope comes from exactly that which we are discussing today. The the absolute knowledge that change of curricula is not only possible but doable, in country after country, and in some of those countries, they are far enough down the line so that we can see that change in societies today. Um, and yeah, I would even include Gaza in that, you know, the Nazi example is a pretty good one.

One of the

00:56:20.270 — 00:57:40.000 · Marcus Sheff
first things that Hitler did when he was elected was change the textbooks. And, you know, he had not that many years, um, you know, six years in order to, um, create a society which was capable of the atrocities that, um, were committed by the Einsatzgruppen, um, you know, who began to massacre Jews before, uh, the Wannsee Conference, before.

And, you know, the concentration camps came online and, um, yet after the Second World War, there was a root and branch change in the German educational system. And there again, we see a society, um, which was subject to this educational system and then which, you know, emerged a a peaceful one and a society, which was how can I put it less inclined to, um, massacre its Jews.

And so, you know, this is, um, you know, absolutely a lesson, a lesson that, um, we can, and frankly we are seeing in Gaza now, there are schools in Gaza which, um, are being, um, run by a certain organization. And, um, that organization is teaching textbooks of peace and tolerance.

00:57:40.000 — 00:57:46.490 · Ben Chertoff
So this is not something that's impossible in the Palestinian Authority, uh, Territories.

00:57:46.650 — 00:58:35.410 · Marcus Sheff
No, I would go further. I would say it's quite banal, you know, as I was saying, you know, 2 billion children in school, there is nothing more, if you like, you know, day to day routine, banal as school education. And yet the power of it is, is quite remarkable. And, you know, children have no choice.

They are stuck to that chair, to that desk. Day after day, year after year. You know, it is it is compulsory. And you know, that is, I think why, um, for instance, the Palestinian Authority, you know, sees school education as such a perfect way of radicalizing and indoctrinating young people, but it is also the perfect way to create those societies of peace and tolerance.

And what they are taught today is who they are going to be tomorrow. Simple as that.

00:58:35.450 — 00:58:55.580 · Ben Chertoff
If you had one thing to tell, uh, the, the UN General Assembly is now, uh, how would you say that assembled? Yes, exactly. The UN General Assembly is now assembled. If you had if you had the opportunity to go in front of the the world stage and give one recommendation, what would it be?

00:58:57.420 — 00:59:45.030 · Marcus Sheff
It would be really very simple indeed. Um, take the hate out of textbooks. You, the UN, are directly involved in teaching. Make sure that all constituent countries are teaching curricula of peace and tolerance. And I would say, frankly, particularly make absolutely sure that Jews and Judaism are protected in these curricula because the power of the curricula to teach hate, particularly about Jews, is something that we have seen time and time again.

It's possible to stop it, and they have the power to do it.

00:59:45.070 — 00:59:47.710 · Ben Chertoff
Marcus Sheff, thank you so much for joining us today.

00:59:47.870 — 00:59:50.230 · Marcus Sheff
Thank you so much Ben. It's been a real pleasure.

00:59:55.710 — 01:00:37.790 · Ben Chertoff
A child can't opt out of a math problem. Same desk, same chair. Day after day, year after year. It's compulsory. And that cuts both ways. The same routine that teaches a six year old the word for martyr could also teach that same child something else. And for anyone who thinks you can't teach peace in the middle of a war, Israeli kids are running to the shelters, and Israel's Education Ministry puts out a civics textbook that walks them through the Palestinian view of 1948, including the Palestinians who left or were forced to leave their homes.

So the war is not the reason.

01:00:37.830 — 01:01:06.440 · Ben Chertoff
As he put it, this isn't a question of teaching. It's a question of politics and political decisions can be unmade. I asked him what he'd say if he had one minute in front of the UN General Assembly, and he didn't need the minute. Take the hate out of the textbooks. You're directly involved in teaching, because what children are taught today is who they're going to be tomorrow.

You can read every one of IMPACT-se's reports for yourself at impact-se.

01:01:08.480 — 01:01:36.240 · Ben Chertoff
Links are in the description. And if this episode gave you something to think about, do me a favor. Leave the show a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. It's the single biggest thing that helps new people find us. If you're not already subscribed, hit the notification bell and follow HonestReporting on Instagram, X, TikTok and Facebook.

I'm Ben Chertoff. This is The Honest Take. And we'll see you next time.