The Honest Take

speaker-0: As a black man, if I say somebody has been racist towards me, then the entire structure of America, particularly on the left, would coalesce around me and support me. But only Jews have to prove that they've experienced anti-Semitism. Only Jews have to engage with and defend and battle to be to be believed. And that double standard, that is the anti-Semitism.

speaker-1: Welcome to The Honest Take, the show that goes past the headlines to find out what's actually true about Israel and the people covering. I'm Ben Chertoff. My guest today is David Christopher Kaufman. He's an opinion editor, former New York Post editor, And the author of the Substack Counterintuitive, he's also black and Jewish. And his argument is sharp, that Jews have become the only minority in America expected to prove their own oppression before anyone will believe it. That double standard is what this conversation is about. October 7th didn't just reshape the Middle East, it recast American politics, media, and even local elections. From Zoran Mamdani's meteoric rise to statements from the DSA on Iran that sound more like IRGC talking points than a progressive platform, foreign policy has fused with identity politics in ways that are reshaping how Jews are categorized in public discourse. My guest today is David Christopher Kaufman. He's been writing about anti-Semitism, DEI, and what he calls the dangerous export of America's oppressor versus oppressed framework onto Israel. He argues that Jews now occupy a paradoxical space, targeted at record levels, and yet doubted when they say so. So, what happens when identity politics collides with Jewish self-defense? Let's get into it. David, thanks so much for joining us. Great to see you. ⁓ so you've written extensively about how October seventh was a reshaping of progressive politics, Western progressive politics, how we've gotten our mayor zone on Mam Dani, we're both in New York City, that he was a creation of Ten Seven. Yes. We're recording this the day after the start of ⁓ Operation Epic Fury, Lions Roar. Mam Dani has come out along with a host of other progressives. And immediately condemned it. The DSA put out a word salad yesterday on US imperialism. None of these people have mentioned the ⁓ upwards of maybe a hundred thousand people the regime has killed in the past month. It seems to me that if Israel is involved, then it is unequivocally bad.

speaker-0: Israel Israel equals bad, no Jews, no news, ⁓ the anything involving ⁓ Muslims, ⁓ extremism, fundamentalism doesn't seem to matter. I mean, what's telling about the statement from the DSA yesterday about the war, and this has really been sort of you know ⁓ part and parcel of everything they've done, is that there's no effort in any way to acknowledge any sense of the other side. So it's not that they're saying we acknowledge that Iranians have suffered. ⁓ you know, tremendously under under this regime. ⁓ and that there could be or there should there should be a need for some sort of regime change. And you know, we encourage the Iranians themselves to ferment their own regime change, which is a legitimate statement. It's a blanket combination of what's happening. And, you know, on a very basic level, you know, the first question is: why should anybody care what the DSA says about? ⁓ the United States policy in the Middle East and this current military engagement with Israel and the US and Iran. Like, why does the DSA even have a say in this? You know, ⁓ and why are they feeling so emboldened that they can make a statement that folks need to pay attention to and that aligns with the philosophy of the mayor? And that's that is really you know evocative of the shift, the political shift we have now seen in New York City and throughout the country on the far left. That has ⁓ resulted from the election of Mam Dani. And the DSA has now achieved a level of legitimacy of and and sort of brazenness that you know couldn't have even been imagined a year ago. And and we're not just seeing that in the way in which they've infiltrated City Hall and are sort of informing the ⁓ the ⁓ the the policies of Mam Dani, but we're seeing that across the country as the DSA tries to field candidates to primary or to take on. ⁓ you know, they're not taking on Republican candidates or conservative candidates. They're targeting the lowest hanging fruit, which is you know not surprising because at the end of these days, ⁓ these folks are actually you know impotent and and and weak. ⁓ they're spineless. ⁓ they're targeting the the lowest hanging fruit, which are existing Democrats, and primary primarying them are taking them on in order to ⁓ push ⁓ the existing left even further left. And what's most concerning about the DSA is that if you look, and there are plenty of Democratic ⁓ candidates ⁓ as well as folks who are angling for re-election, who are now seeking the DSA ⁓ seal of approval because they understand that this brings ⁓ sort of legitimacy along the left. ⁓ it also brings a large operation to try to get them elected and lots of lots of you know ⁓ extremist ⁓ progressive fans. But what's most concerning about the DSA ⁓ seal of approval and their signature here is that in order to get the DSA seal of approval, you have to meet like 10 different ⁓ qual qualifications. And I think it's seven of those 10 different qualifications directly engage with Israel. So, like Mamdani, who his only, only interest and only obsession, only sort of career path was one ⁓ anchored and steeped in anti-Zionism. The DSA is completely obsessed with Israel and anti Zionism and

speaker-1: Only foreign policy thing at all on their questionnaire domestic candidates. You know, we're talking like city council person.

speaker-0: Right. And and and and it's it's again if they have I think there's ten policy ⁓ measure that that these candidates must meet, and seven of the ten connect to Israel. And and that's what's so scary about them is that their is their Israel mania is so extreme and so entrenched, and there's no sense of of sort of self-reflection or no s nobody's questioning like what is the logic behind this, why what is the obsession with Israel, why doesn't it pertain to any other country, why this double standard, why this extreme double standard? ⁓ and and and and we're now seeing that trickle down ⁓ all the way to sort of moderate Democratic candidates, even someone like Gavin Newsom, who publicly needed to declare he's never taken APAC money. But it's not possible he could ever take APAC money because he's never run for a national position. Right.

speaker-1: I d I don't know if you saw the ⁓ Perfect Strangers remake that Brad Lander and Zoran Mam Dani did as their as their new campaign ad, but the only policy statement in the entire thing was I've never taken money from APAC.

speaker-0: Right. Well, yeah, I mean, that says it all. And and and of course, you know, the worst part about it is you have, you know, organizations like J Street, who are sort of like trying to position themselves now as you know the opposite or the corollary to APAC. But at the end the day, what folks like J Street don't do you know fail to understand, or maybe they do understand, but they're living in some sort of fantasy, is that there's nothing they can do, nothing they can say, no policy they can make, no counter Donations they can make that will ever satisfy these people. That's that's that's that's the folly of all of this exercising Jews trying to appease the folks who hate us to say, You cannot appease them. Nothing you do will ever meet their benchmarks because they will keep on moving their benchmarks further and further to the left. Because at the end of the day, all they care about is the eradication of Israel and, you know, the deaths of Jews. Do you think it

speaker-1: Do you think it is that deep an anti Semitism?

speaker-0: Firmly, I mean there's no question that Zoran Mamdani firmly believes that Israel should no longer exist as a sovereign Jewish nation. He said as such, you know, and and of course he's never really said then well what does that mean for the Jews who live there? And we all know what that means. It means that you know either they live under some sort of like, you know, ⁓ quasi-pluralistic ⁓ Islamic caliphatic like ⁓ rule, or they face ⁓ extermination. And Nobody really is willing to sort of sort of say that. There's all of this language about ending Zionism, but nobody really actually is is is kind of you know brave enough, has the cojones enough to actually say what that means. And we've seen what that means. You know, an end to Zionism means the mass slaughter of Jews in the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan.

speaker-1: And what's most frustrating is you get Jews who are supporting that whole platform. I mean, we have JVP.

speaker-0: There is a very sort of odd reality amongst ⁓ certain Jews, amongst these Jews who are you know actively working against us. And I say that as somebody who's both black and and ⁓ you know both African American and Jewish American. You know, there is a strain of there no African American in the United States of America, I would I would contend, not even Clarence Thomas, not even Candace Owens, would really sort of ⁓ s concede or sort of state that. They believe that they are exempt from racism, that they believe they've been they live in a world where racism just won't impact them. We all know as black people that no matter how successful we are, no matter how assimilated we are, no matter how rich and bougie we are, you know, there is there's going to be white people out there who just don't like us and want to do us harm. But there does seem to be this sort of strain or or or cadre of Jews who bafflingly bafflingly believe that they are exempt from anti-Semitism. And not just that. That if they do A, B, C, or D, if they say the right thing, if they do the right thing, if they align themselves with the right cause, if they're wokey or progressive E or D E I E or Critical Race Theory E enough, then the or if there are the non-genocidal Jews, as Ilhan Omar phrased them, ⁓ like last year when she was at the encampment in in ⁓ in Colombia. Then you know the the the the the the folks aligned against us who hate us, then then they will like them and they will support them. And and and and as I've said, they can you know self-exempt from anti-Semitism. But it doesn't really work that way. You know, just as every black person understands, every gay person understands that ⁓ racism or homophobia is not about what I do as a black or a gay person. I can't control it. It has actually nothing to do with me. It's all about The homophobe or the racist. Anti-Semitism is not about the Jewish, ⁓ about Jewish action or Jewish behavior. Antisemitism is about the anti-Semite. And and there's this refusal to concede that amongst these Jews for a lot of reasons. You know, it's really hard. ⁓ I was at the the village temple this past week speaking about these topics. And as I sort of discussed then, it's it's very hard for many American Jews who just simply never ⁓ experienced or have no context for, or we're not raised in an America where they believed that you know the the vast numbers of people were against are against them. You know, black people grow up understanding that there is you know structural inherent white supremacy and racism all over the country, all over the time. It could like bite you in the butt at any moment possible. And we have to kind of be prepared all the time. It doesn't mean we we live in this like constant state of peril anxiety, you know, life is still pretty good. But in the back of our minds, we're aware of that all the time. You know, as a black man, I'm constantly concerned about how close I walk to white to white women on the Upper East Side because I'm concerned that they're going to think that I want to mug them, which I don't. My point is that other minorities in America have been trained since birth to understand the peril against him and most importantly to understand that there are people in this country who want to do them harm at all times. Jews have not had that experience for the most part. And we are experiencing it now, but we have not had that experience for the most part. So there's no context in which to sort of ⁓ exist in the world with that awareness and reality. And once you, you know, it's it's very hard for people, you know, who've never had that awareness or reality to really accept it. It's a total mind fuck. Because once you accept that reality, then what do you do with it? Where do you go from there? And the worst part is that our Jewish leadership, you know, our institutional leadership is really failing to articulate this reality. They're really failing to say, you know, listen, folks, you know, out there, we are really, really facing this sort of violent potential ⁓ destabilizing ⁓ condition in America. And because nobody will say it. They're too afraid to say it, and they're too afraid to deal with the fallout. So now you have you know all of these Jews all over America. kind of aware that like some serious is going down, but nobody will but nobody will embolden them or provide them with the tools to actually do something about it.

speaker-1: The fear of standing up and this this idea you've written about it that that Jews are simultaneously ⁓ the perpetrator of oppression and also w vulnerable enough to be attacked for it. Yes. the it's this might be two questions. ⁓ but it seems so much of this concept of Jews as insulated from And this is ourselves as as being ⁓ insulated from ⁓ from racism and from and from anti-Semitism in the US is is a feature of the US and the historical acceptance of Jews here. That's not something that has played out globally for for those who, you know, missed the deadline in the twenties to come to the US.

speaker-0: Of course. And good for and good for good for us. You know, nobody nobody is criticizing and no Jew in America should ever feel like they have to account for the success of this community. You know, the success of this community has come from a lot of hard work and has come from decades of entrenched anti Semitism, just just a different kind of anti Semitism that we're seeing now. This

speaker-1: recasting of Jews. It's it's been exported globally now, where that's the lens through through which ⁓ so many are viewing the Middle East, where, you know, it was a completely different story for Jews who are in Israel right now, who are all the children of refugees.

speaker-0: Right, I mean, ⁓ the the the the x what's what's really happened is that ⁓ Jews have been sort of caught in this ⁓ battle between the reality, the the military exercises and the military reaction to October 7th, which is a a war in Gaza, a legitimate defensive war, a war that has been brutal, a war that has been horrific, a war that has resulted in Know tens of thousands of civilian deaths in Gaza, which is unimaginably unfortunate. But it but it has not been a genocide. And most importantly, it has been a legitimate defensive war perpetrated against you know ⁓ a f ⁓ a terrorist government. Hamas is a government, they were elected by their people, ⁓ terrorist government that declared war on a sovereign nation. When when Nations declare wars on other nations, they should not be surprised when those nations rise up and defend themselves and thousands of people die. That's what happens when you declare war on a country. The country has a legitimate right to defend themselves. ⁓ that has been conflated or has been overlapped with the reality of identity politics and intersectionality and the ⁓ the obsession with identity here in the United States and in the West. And so what you've had is this conflation of Israel ⁓ as as a Jewish nation, a nation defending itself. You know, we also have to remember that, you know, as I like to s phrase it, you know, Jews defending Jews is a revolutionary act. It is it is an a historical act that does not have very much precedence in in in history, does not have very much context. Traditionally, Jews have been, you know, disempowered. We haven't had armies or or or or or arsenals of weapons or Any sort of agency to defend ourselves, you know. And that's often how, you know, the folks against us have liked it. I think one of the reasons there is such rancor and horror against Israel and against Jews literally taking up arms and defending themselves is because there's no historical precedent for it. It's only existed in the last 70, 70 years. That's why I suggest that it's truly revolutionary for Jews to defend themselves. And which is why I also say that, you know. As Jews at this moment, we must be revolutionaries because if we don't, the forces aligned against us will come and kill us, kill us. And they already have, and they've already said they were going to do it again. So I think you have all of this sort of intersection between a highly militarized conflict in the Middle East, coupled with ⁓ a conflict in the US that is rooted in identity politics. And whatever conversations or conflicts are rooted in identity politics in the US, Jews will. Always lose, or at least lose for today. Why? Well, for one thing, you know, Jews in the context of the DEI structure, of ⁓ of intersectionality, of you know, the the the notion of discrimination and racism, Jews aren't considered a minority. You know, if you look, for instance, if you look at ⁓ the the rules around the Academy Awards that were implemented a couple years ago, and the DEI ⁓ requirements for films that are are are ⁓ Nominated for certain high-level awards at the Academy Awards, ⁓ there are all these requirements for minority participation, and Jews are not considered a minority. And it's it's interesting that even though Jews, you know, this this is like the the the dirty little secret, the flip side, Jews might not be considered a minority by the gatekeepers of of identity politics. But you know, when it comes to actual ⁓ anti-Semitic ⁓ violence and hate crimes, there were more. Jewish hate crimes in New York City last year than all other minorities combined. So Jews have to suffer from the consequences of being a minority, but are not able to enjoy any of the benefits of other benefits of being a minority by the gatekeepers of who gets to be a minority. And because of that, you know, ⁓ and and and in that context, you know, the minor the sort of identity politic structure, the DEI structure that exists. And I want to say that as an African American, I'm not, I'm not like Bill Ackman or Barry Weiss. I don't think we need to dismantle DEI. I I think we dismantle DEI when we dismantle racism. But I do think it needs to be completely overhauled. And the great original sin, the great failure of DEI was that it never accounted for for Jews. You know, it never accounted for one of the for a very key minority group in the United States. And, you know, in in a sense, how can a program or or or an ideology like DEI that's supposed to ⁓ protect And and to ⁓ embolden's protect and elevate the needs of minorities, how can it function if it leaves out a minority? You know, it doesn't make any sense. So this mine this this sort of you know identity politics, ⁓ a system in the US by design was created to fail Jews. And you know, October 7th was sort of like the first real, you know, system-wide stress test of the DEI, you know, ⁓ industry, and it failed miserably. And within that failure came, you know, the the it revealed the structural hierarchical ⁓ weaknesses of this system, which basically, you know, positions some groups above other groups, you know, some colors above other colors, some economically privileged people above other economically dis disenfranchised people. And of course, within that, Jews have been positioned as the ultimate, you know, enemy against everybody. And of course. The biggest problem is that, you know, because so many Jews themselves on the left, as part of the progressive structure, were actually, you know, a part of the system that created this DII system, that now they're stuck in this impossible place of having been, you know, ⁓ invested and and and having been ⁓ part of the you know the establishment of an ideological system that now is completely committed. to their, you know, mist to to to to ⁓ oppressing them and and to in a sense disempowering them. So then what do you do?

speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. And you talk, you know, DEI leaving out Jews in the beginning. The the irony now, ⁓ not only are is it weaponized against us, but as you've written, you know, Xyo, which is this word that you know, I remember that associated with David Duke, ⁓ has now suddenly become ⁓ you know the the the weapon of the left and as you called it, the new N-word. How do we get out of that?

speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I I wrote a piece a couple of weeks ago about, you know, this idea that Xio is the new N-word. And it it it was a very organic piece to me because it came from their my visceral reaction when I heard somebody call me a Xio. I was like, wow, this feels a lot like being called the N-word, which I have been too many times in my life. ⁓ well, how do we get out of that? You know, it takes other people besides me to say that this. Word is unacceptable, that this word is a slur that cannot and should not ever be tolerated in this society, that this word is a tool of violence, that this word is a tool of systematic disempowerment, that this word is a tool to silence and intimidate people. But it requires Jews themselves to actually take that, to actually take that action. It requires our leadership, folks like the ADL and all these other major Jewish groups, to step Up and say that these this language is no longer acceptable. I mean, you know, we just saw right now in the midst of a multi-piece, a multi- ⁓ episode program ⁓ on PBS, ⁓ looking at Black Jewish relations, you know, ⁓ anchored by ⁓ hosted by Henry Lewis Gates. We need Henry Lewis Gates to come up and say, you know, as somebody concerned about the overlap between blacks and Jews, I see specific language, it makes me think this. It takes, you know. bravery and it takes, you know, original thinking. And this is what's missing. This is what has been missing from the last two plus years post-October 7th. On all sides, there still remains this attempt to create, or on all on most sides, there still remains this attempt to create sort of, you know, feel-good, ⁓ crowd-pleasing actions in order to not ruffle too many feathers. But you know, when when when you know, because you know White Jews are are f are fearful of being called racist, or or people of c blacks are being are fearful of being called anti-Semitic. Everybody's, you know, living in this sort of era of timidity. But do you know who's not living in an era of timidity? The pro-Gaza, pro-Palestinian protesters roaming throughout cities all over the all over the world, you know, destroying businesses and keeping young Jewish kids from going to their to going to their classes and going to Bondi Beach in in Australia and shooting and killing, you know, young Hanukkah celebrants. They have no fear. They're not concerned about global response. They're not standing in in timidity. In fact, they're counting on our timidity. They want us to be timid because that's the greatest weapon that they have. So that's I mean, as much as I don't want to already, I understand this is a heavy burden. Already Jews are being tasked with so much. They're being tasked with enduring, you know, a tsunami of violent anti-Semitism. They're being tasked with somehow trying to. raise children and and st you know and and and have lives and have their businesses and it's keep a semblance of normalcy living tasked with also living with grave concern about the future. But unfortunately, you know, the work is not done. The work is actually only just beginning. We now have to, we have to understand that what this is really emerging as is a civil rights issue. You know, this this ⁓ Journey towards ⁓ Jewish safety and Jewish protection and and the and the the the true enforcement of the laws of the land to protect Jews, just as it's been it's just as we're demanding that it's ⁓ enforced to protect black people or Latin people or women or gay people, that Jews also must demand these kinds of civil ⁓ protections and civil liberties. And what this really is, is a civil rights movement. You know, we are now entering for Jews. The civil rights, you know, ⁓ push that in many ways we just never had. Jews were able to sort of skip the kind of political and societal civil rights ⁓ push that other minorities had, you know, blacks ⁓ in the 50s and 60s, women in the 70s, ⁓ gays and LGBTs and LGBT and lesbians in the 80s, and then you know, the trans movement later on. Jews were able in some ways to skip that because we had incredible economic success. But we never, never really dealt with this sort of civil rights element of it now. And I would really say that right now, you know, Jewish safety and and and the and the codification of Jewish safety is really emerging as the great civil rights movement of our time. The problem is so many Jews are just too, I guess I would say, uncertain how to articulate that, let alone enact it.

speaker-1: Yeah, I mean there is the the the long through line that we've had of not wanting to ruffle feathers. I I understand where some of that fear comes from.

speaker-0: It's not just not ruffling feathers. Jews have been incredibly accommodating. That has been the sort of the, I would say, you know, the the subtext of everything we've done, you know, since we arrived here, you know, in in the fifteenth century. Like like Jews have always been the group that's been accommodating because because on some levels we've always feared extermination. ⁓ later on, we understood, at least in America, that we had some of the ⁓ economic Privilege to do that. We had the resources to be accommodating. And then now, most recently, there's been this sort of, you know, Jews have mostly been aligned with the left, and they've drunk, they've they've they've swum in and drowned on the Kool-Aid that basically said that they don't have a right to ever complain about anything because they're white and rich. And I am one Jew who is not white and I am not rich.

speaker-1: One of the amazing magic tricks I think that the left has done is to ⁓ come up with this ⁓ you know, anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism.

speaker-0: So, my response to that is that I think that there are ⁓ some examples where anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism. The problem with that is it takes incredibly sophisticated reading of a scenario or situation to really be able to make that differentiation. And because most of the folks engage in this kind of rhetoric, particularly the anti-Zionist anti-Zionist folks. Do not possess that sophistication, I would say that in most cases anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. There's no separation. And I think one of the reasons for that is that in the ⁓ the the contention or the assertion that I'm merely being anti-s anti-Zionistic and not anti-Semitic reflects a perverse, completely irrational, and completely ⁓ Unsubstantiated with any other minority group obsession with Israel, an obsession with the Israeli government. Like when people start, you know, spouting off off about Netanyahu, my first response to them is: Well, who's the president of Mexico? Who's the pre who's the prime minister of Canada? I mean, these are the countries that are most important to us. You know, we have you know 20 or 30 million, if not more, Mexican Americans in the US. We share a thousand you know, borders. Thousands of miles long with these two nations. We sh we trade trillions of dollars every year. Who are their leaders? You know, but all they're concerned about is Benjamin Netanyahu. That reflects a double standard and and a sort of Israel obsessiveness that doesn't really exist for any other nation and cannot be separated from the unique Jewish nature of Israel. And that double standard, that unmatched obsession. That is the anti-Semitism. That is anti-Semitism. An obsession, you know, the obsession, the irrational obsession with Israel, its leadership, its politics, its policies is cannot be separated from the Jewish nature of Israel. It's like saying, I just love Italy, but I can't stand those Italians. Or I just love France, but those French people really rub me the wrong way. It's like, you know, they're all connected. If the obsession with Israel Israel is a country full of Jews. It it the Jewish nature of the country is what makes Israel Israel. I mean, there are definitely minorities there and there are millions of people who are not Jewish there, but you can't separate Judaism from Israel. They're part and parcel of the same thing. So I think it's very, very difficult to allege that you know one is anti-Zionistic without being anti-sem anti-Semitic. Again, I would not say it's impossible, but it would take an incredibly sophisticated reading. Of a certain situation or a certain context that unfortunately, as we've seen, most folks engaged in this, you know, anti-Zionistic, anti-Israel rhetoric just don't possess. To say that someone is being anti-Zionistic and not anti-Semit, anti-Semitic is really giving somebody a massive benefit of the doubt. And most of these, most of the folks engaged, engaged in this kind of protest just don't deserve it and haven't earned it.

speaker-1: Yeah, it goes back to the idea of Brad Landers and just talking about APAC, where you know, APAC is a is a drop in the bucket when you look at the other the other lobbies out there and singular obsession.

speaker-0: Right. I mean cut you know, we don't just look at cutter. We that's that's all we have to say, you know. ⁓ so I I yeah, I don't I don't really, you know, and I also think that it's just a way to sort of again, it's a tool for ⁓ for silencing people. And it's a tool to basically, you know, this this this this the notion that you know one can be anti Zionistic and not anti Semitic is also a tool to sort of pit Jews against Jews. So it's a way for some Jews to say, well I'm not betraying Judaism. I'm only betraying, I'm only separating myself from Israel, but I'm still, I'm still Jewish, unlike those other Jews who are completely slaves to Zionism. It's a way for Jews, a way for our enemies to once again use the greatest weapon that they have, which is to pit us against each other. And what's so and this is what Mamdani did during the election. This is what made him so clever, is that he was incredibly clever in pitting Jews against Jews. Jews. So a whole group of, and this is also, you know, our fault as Jews during the primary, you know, because we fell for this hook, line, and sinker. You had a whole bunch of Jews saying, I think Zoran Mamdani is anti-Semitic. And then he, you know, weaponized a whole group of other Jews to say, you know, Jews for Mamdani, he's not anti-Semitic. We support him. And then the non-Jews were like, Well, he must not be anti-Semitic because these Jews say that he's not. And that's where we went wrong, because it goes back to what I would say as a black person. As a black man, if I say somebody has been racist towards me, I had a racist experience at a store, or the cops are racist towards me, or you know, ⁓ some mean person on the street was racist towards me, then the entire world the entire structure of America, particularly on the left, would coalesce around me and support me. The same thing as a gay man if I were to say I experienced ⁓ a homophobia. But only Jews have to prove That they've experienced anti-Semitism. Only Jews have to engage with and defend and battle to be to be believed. And that double standard, that is the anti-Semitism. I I repeat it again and again. The double standard is the anti-Semitism. What we should have done instead, what Jews should have simply done and said, is said, Zoramamdani's anti-Semitic because I think he's anti-Semitic. I'm a Jew and I feel he's anti-Semitic. Just like if a black person were to say, I believe somebody's racist. You believe them, you must believe me. If you don't believe me, if I'm held to a different standard, then this entire ideology around identity actually doesn't hold water. Every time, and and that's the irony. Every time Jews are doubted in their anti-Semitism, it actually erodes the entire identity ideology that says that any minority should be should be should be believed. You know, it's like it's like This entire system only works if everybody is treated equitably. This is really important. We love this word equitable, equitable, equit, equitable. But where is the equity for Jews? And again, the main reason it hasn't existed is because we haven't demanded it. We must demand. Jews must begin to demand their civil rights.

speaker-1: You also come to this ⁓ with the perspective of being in the media, of being ⁓ writer and editor. How have you seen

speaker-0: Double threat. Double trouble, as my kids would say.

speaker-1: How have you seen this play out in in your professional experience? I've heard from I've heard from tons of writers who have said that, you know, you you you pitch a story on Israeli victims and it gets it it gets spiked.

speaker-0: Right. So I've actually experienced it from the inverse, ⁓ or from the reverse, or from the in reverse. You know, I have spent most of my time since October 7th, or all of my time since October 7th, mostly working in the centrist, you could even say conservative media, as an editor at the New York Post, and then writing a lot for a public mostly writing freelancer publications like The Telegraph and the National Post. So they were very open to you know the kinds of stories that I wanted to tell. From my perspective as someone who is, you know, pro-Israel and highly Zionistic. ⁓ what I have seen though is that as somebody, ⁓ so I I left my job at the New York Post seven months ago and I've been mostly freelancing. And any effort I have tried to ⁓ write pieces that sort of ⁓ take a more criticized and nuanced look at, say, the racial dynamics of. the current ⁓ atmosphere in the US ⁓ in regards to Jews, anti-Semitism. ⁓ I had a piece recently where I really challenged there's been a lot of of of content and chatter during February, during Black History Month, ⁓ goes back to this PBS special with with Henry Lewis Gates, looking at sort of, you know, re-establishing, you know, historic Black Jewish alliances. And I was just like, why? You know, why are we spending so much energy trying to get blacks and Jews to realign and to to reform coalitions? Like, what is the need for that? What is the motivation for that? Who benefits from that? I don't think it's blacks and I don't think it's Jews. I think it's, you know, an an elite ⁓ progressive activist class that has, you know, that that really, you know, benefits from the vast amounts of money that are poured into these efforts that really don't result in anything. I posited a different theory that instead of us spending all of this energy trying to get young black kids to identify with young Jewish kids, which is just not really true. You know, most blacks and kids and most Jewish kids have nothing in common today, which is fine. Nobody's saying that that's a problem. We don't have to manufacture alliances and affinities that don't exist. But I wanted to write a piece that basically said instead of spending all this energy trying to get blacks and Jews to realign. What we really need to do is to talk to young black kids and make them understand that they have nothing in common with Hamas, that they have nothing in common with Islamic fundamentalism, that they have nothing in common with jihadiism. In fact, young black kids and African-American activists, you guys have been duped and bamboozled by this pro-Palestinian movement, who has completely co-opted our history as black people. I call it movement mooching. They've mooched off of our own movements. ⁓ they've co-optered our black our noble black civil rights struggle for their own craven interests. Let me explain. You know, my own father and aunt many years ago went to segregated schools in the South on my African-American side, and they were met by aggressive violence from segregationists who did not want young black kids going to school with young white kids. But my aunt and my father and uncle didn't, you know. ⁓ place bombs in the homes of white people. They protested nonviolently and nobly. And that is what made the African American civil rights struggle so powerful was that it was a nonviolent struggle. same thing mostly mostly in in South Africa during the 80s and 90s for apartheid. That's what made Nelson Mandela ⁓ you know such a symbol of of of of international ⁓ Resistance was that it was a non-violent resistance for the most part. Whereas if you compare that to the Palestinian quest for liberation, it has been entirely steeped in violence. In fact, violence is the only thing they've actually ever really had. So when I see you know on MLK Day in January, you saw all of these, you know, pro-Palestinian groups having these like teach-ins ⁓ for solidarity and using the MLK Day to ⁓ to teach you know all about ⁓ Palestinian resistance. And I was just like Fuck that sh. That is unacceptable. You know, there's nothing in common between the African American civil rights movement and the Palestinian quest for their own liberation. They're completely diametrically opposed. And when I see the Palestinian group's movement mooching off of the my own personal history and the own history of my own family, I am irate and furious. I'm furious because it's both an offense, but it's not true. And we, instead of us wasting all this energy trying to convince young black kids that they have so much in common with young Jewish kids, what they really need to understand is that they have nothing in common with Hamas and fundamentalism, and that their own history is being stolen from them, and they've been bamboozled by these like, you know, pro-Palestinian groups, and that they they, you know, we need to tell them that this is no longer acceptable. I wrote a I wrote a story about that. I thought it was pretty good. It ultimately wound up in this publication called ⁓ Compact, which is really kind of new and groovy. But every single major media organization refused that. Now, maybe they refuse it because they think I suck, I don't know. But you know, not only do I have a personal stake stake in this in this in this piece as someone who is actually black and Jewish and has spent lots of time in the region, but ⁓ you know, I'm I'm also you know a relatively good writer. My my point simply is that. While so many folks out there have been in in in the in media land, in my position, have been have found resistance to telling the stories about Jews, about Israelis, the resistance I find is any critical ⁓ engagement with the sort of progressive leftist run identity structure that that continues to frame, you know, Jews as oppressors, Jews as white oppressors, Jews as colonizers. And will resist tooth and nail to any attempt to to reshape that narrative and to have what I would say is an honest accounting of what is really going on right now in America.

speaker-1: So it's gonna take more than blue square.

speaker-0: Lut the blue square is a perfect example of of the continued waste of time, energy and resources. You

speaker-1: You have talked about Palestinian statehood as diplomatic DEI. I think that flows into the conversation we're we're having right now as you know, Jews as as oppressors and then the moral relativism of of violence.

speaker-0: Yeah, there is this and it goes, you know, it really goes to this idea that there's this constant quest for what I would call moral parity and not moral clarity. You know, and and I want to exist in a world of moral clarity. I want to exist in a world where things are very, you know, there's there's you know, I believe that in this battle there are good guys and there are bad guys. And there's no problem with saying you want to be with the guy bad with the good guys. The the the piece I wrote about you know ⁓ Palestinian statehood and and what as I as I sort of termed it as an exercise in diplomatic DEI was that I was struck, and again, I I I go at this as somebody who is African American and does not believe, unlike many Jews, that DEI should be dismantled. I don't believe that at all. ⁓ I see the effects of you know white supremacy and racism across all of our institutions every single day. So I I I I I start with by saying that. But obviously DEI as it exists has completely failed and needs to be entirely reimagined. But when you look at Palestinian the quest for Palestinian statehood, it's it's it's it's it's ⁓ almost it's it's it's it's incredible how much it it mirrors this this the DEI movement. You know, it it's all about equity. The Jews have a state, so we have to have a state too. It's all about ⁓ ⁓ gatekeeping and and and sort of kpis, we have to reach certain outcomes and we have to reach these outcomes regardless of the actual effectiveness of this out these outcomes. So if you look at DEI, it's all about, you know, we must reach a certain amount of say black people matriculated into elite schools in a certain year. But really, you know, if you look at young black kids matriculating into say Ivy League schools, That's not really the benchmark we really need to get to. What we really need to look at is what is the benchmark of young black kids graduating from these schools, particularly in four years, particularly not saddled by hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, particularly with degrees that they can use to actually make money. So DEI and Palestinian statehood are all about benchmarks, but they're it's a it's the facade of benchmarks, it's the optics of benchmarks. So we're gonna have all these folks going to the UN and declaring a Palestinian state. having all these countries saying, you know, we're going to open an ⁓ some sort of diplomatic relations, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you know, where is the leadership for this Palestinian state? You know, where where is the where is the will amongst the Palestinians? Where is where is the infrastructure? Where is the acknowledgement that there has been effort after effort after effort for decades and decades to create a Palestinian state? And most of those efforts have been thwarted by the Palestinians themselves. ⁓ where is the acknowledgement that this legend around ⁓ Palestinians being entitled to a state is because the Jews stole their state. Well, there never was a state of Palestine. You know, we're we're beginning this entire conversation with a fundamental lie. The Jews stole Palestine. There never was a Palestine. You know, there certainly are Palestinians, for sure. I have met many Palestinians in my life and spent vast amounts of time with them. I've been to the places we would consider Palestine and seen Palestinians living there and and and and existing there and know that their families have been there for a very, very, very long time. And there are some folks out there who might problematize even the notion of Palestinians that, you know, that's an invented ⁓ nationality or an invented identity. I'm not going to go down that route. Because just as we kind of need to, we demand that folks kind of de facto accept that we as Jews exist in That part of the world, we need to kind of de facto accept that the Palestinians exist too. Like so, I'm not gonna go down that route. There are Palestinians, they're real, they exist, and they do have a legitimate claim to self-determination, just like we do. But the problem is that every time there has been a push towards that self-determination, yes, there's been resistance from the Israelis, obviously, but they've they are the ones who have who have squandered opportunity after opportunity after. ⁓ and that again. goes back to this idea of of this sort of quest for Palestinian statehood and its it's its you know parallels to DEI. It's all about outcomes, equity, benchmark. ⁓ it's all about accomp accomplishments, but not really achievement, or achievement without really accomplishments. We need things to happen, but nobody actually has to really do anything to make it happen. What the most important thing is that these things happen at all. And In the end, you know, in many ways, you know, DEI hasn't really benefited, you know, minorities. You know, if you look at ⁓ for instance, at in the specialized school high schools in New York, there are fewer people of color matriculating to the top public schools in New York than ever, despite every despite unimaginable policies ⁓ put in place to get them there. So this this need to sort of ⁓ manufacture a ⁓ an essentialism. For a Palestinian statehood isn't really benefiting the Palestinians. What would benefit the Palestinians is to end entrenched corruption, is to end the pay for murder system that they have and paying ⁓ the families of Shaheeds who've taken it upon themselves to kill Jews. ⁓ it would be you know an end to sort of the ⁓ entrenched violent rhetoric ⁓ of of of of the Palestinians. ⁓ and a realization that if in order for there to be a Palestinian state, there needs to be an acknowledgement that the Jewish state exists and it's not going anywhere. Much as much like when it comes to DEI, which is really, you know, the irony of DEI is that you know, even though sort of the managerial class tends to can often be minorities, it's kind of like devised and overseen by white people. So what you have is a bunch of white people telling Mostly black people, that you don't really have to do a lot in order to receive ⁓ the cash and prizes of American achievement. it's the racism of low expectations. Nothing's nothing much is being demanded of you, of course, which I which that we saw with Gavin Newsom this past weekend. And the same thing with the Palestinians. It's the same patronizing, you know, ⁓ white-led trickle-down to people of color, ⁓ paternalism that really says, you know. ⁓ y'all don't have to do a lot, but we'll give you a state too, cause the Jews got one as well. And it's again, it's the racism of low expectations, and that then it doesn't benefit anybody anybody, particularly not minorities.

speaker-1: Hamas is very open with their goals of the destruction of the Jewish state. And not just that, but the removal of Jews. It's almost like the West hears this and it's just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but but but you don't really mean that. You know, you don't really mean that you want to kill ⁓ all the Jews. Yeah, yeah. And there's no there's no acknowledgement of that. Like you said, such a paternalistic view.

speaker-0: They do they do mean that. The idea, the idea that there's no acknowledgement of this sort of existential threat, that they do want to kill all of us. Again, I unfortunately go back to blaming to blaming us, to blaming us Jews. I mean, if you look at who are the folks out there that are that are pushing through the message that who pushed through the message that it was enough of like black men being targeted by the police and being shot and killed, even though fundament even though, you know, in the end, you know, that was the the the the data around that didn't really support the the the Massive global response in the year in 2020. But who were the ones who basically led the movement to sort of say we must empty this brutality? It was black people. You know, who are the ones who led the movement towards trans acceptance? It was trans people. Who are the ones who protested at Stonewall and said, you know, we will no longer tolerate gays living as second-class citizens? It was gay people. The folks who have not who have the the folks who are not demanding Civil rights who not demanding equal rights in America today are Jews. We are not demanding our own rights. We are not leading this revolution to ensure that we exist, you know, justly and safely in this country. And until we do, it will not happen. How do we do that? Well, I think first and foremost, we have to acknowledge the problem, you know, and that's where our Jewish leadership has completely failed us. I mean, they are.

speaker-1: How do you think we do that? Yeah.

speaker-0: I don't think that the tools are not there. You know, we are still in a world of accommodation. We're still in a world of trying to be, to be and to make friends. We're still in a world of trying to, you know, ensure everybody has a seat at the table. A perfect example of this is la perfect example. Last week there was this brew haha at ⁓ in Atlanta. Over the Jewish Film Festival. And it turned out that the Israeli government decided to withdraw their funding because on the jury board of this Atlanta Jewish Festival was a young student who was, who I believe he was African American, and he was a member of a local student Muslim association. And he was placed on the jury for the Jewish Film Festival in Atlanta. And it turned out unsurprising. That he had expressed all kinds of sort of anti-Israeli, anti-Zionic sent anti-Zionistic sentiments. And so the Israeli government, you know, ⁓ the Israeli ⁓ consulate in Atlanta said we're not, we're not supporting this. And it became this big drama. My question is: why was this guy placed on the jury, a member of the jury in the first place? Why do we need some young African-American Muslim student to be on the jury of the Jewish the Jewish Film Festival in Atlanta? We would never I I I can't imagine that we would insist that some, you know, ⁓ gr ⁓ you know ⁓ stridently Jewish student was placed on the ⁓ the the the the jury board of the black film festival or ⁓ some you know Israeli kid was put was placed on the ⁓ the jury board of the black film film festival. Wha why wasn't this questioned in the first place? Like this need for manufactured and entrenched diversity only really seems to be enforced when it comes at the expense of Jews. And of course, once that Bruhaha happened, yet another Jewish cultural event was tarnished by this scandal. And it was a scandal that was completely manufactured and should never have happened in the first place. Like at this point, Jews need to stop need to start saying, like, We're not playing this like diversity game anymore because we know that all it does is f us, you know, so we're not gonna play it. And unfortunately, the need to be accommodating, the need to be the good guys, the need to make friends constantly plays out. And in the end, all it does is bite us in the butt because we are too afraid of being called racist, of being called being canceled in order to change. This narrative. I mean, I fully contend that any conversation around Jews and race is a lose-lose conversation. You know, we see all these conversations about Jews and whiteness and white colonizers, and you know, it goes on and on and on and on. And these conversations will always be used against us. Any conversation around Jews and race will always wind up, will always regress to a tool of justifying Hamas. justifying the atrocities of October 7th and justifying Jewish death. As far as I'm concerned, there are no Jew, there are no white Jews, there are no black Jews, there are no Jews of color. The only color that matters when you're Jew, when you're a Jew is Jewish.

speaker-1: It seems like we have three thousand years of trying to be the trying to fit in. Israel is the is is different from all of that. That's that's the odd thing out.

speaker-0: I think Israel also forces Jews to kind of reconsider things that they haven't wanted to consider and that they haven't needed to consider. I mean, it is you know, it's perfectly legitimate that most American Jews aren't like me, aren't highly Zionistic, and don't necessarily consider Israel, you know, a core part of their identity or their belief system. That's understandable, but they don't have to. And that's that's fine. Like, like they can do whatever they want. Like I don't necessarily believe that every Jew must be in Israel or must you know hold a strong affinity for Israel. I I I hope that they would, but I don't necessarily believe that they have to, and nor sh do they necessarily need to. But what they need to but I think every Jew needs to understand is that is that the circumstances that they again it goes back to this idea that they cannot exempt themselves from the fundamental circumstances around this current moment. And what I mean by that is that As much as these Jews can legitimately and understandably say that this is just, you know, these issues are just not that important to them. Not that they're not so much a part of their lives. What they really need to understand is that, but they are, those Jews are very important to the folks aligned against us. That, like, even though we might not think Israel is so much so important to us, Zionism is not so so important to us, Zionism is not so important to us. The folks aligned against us, the Hamasniks out there, the Islamic jihadists, the jihadis out there, we are very important to them. And there's no differentiation. You know, when they speak of the Zionists in Arabic, they don't say the Israelis, they don't say the Zionists, they say Yahud. They say the Jews. And those Jews are not differentiated. You cannot opt to say, I am not one of those Jews, because they will not allow it. All the Jews are the same. And yes, you know, when they come to kill you, they might sort of say, you know, ⁓ Jewish voice for Palestine folks, thank you for your service, but they will still kill you. And and and you know, just like you know, in the Holocaust, there weren't, you know, ⁓ separate lines for the Jews in Germany that had been good to the state. You know, in fact they were probably killed first because the state could find them most easily. I think it's also important to say that as much as you know there are Jews who might you know, opt to to you know opt out of Zionism and opt out of you know love for Israel. I think the most important thing is that, and I don't want to sound cheesy and kind of Pollyanish, but there's a fundamental truth to this, that Israel is not opting out of you. You know, at the end the day, Jews, in your moment of peril, you know, a grave peril, whether it's you know five years from now and we've reached a point of untenable anti-Semitism or You're traveling on one of your fancy trips, and the bad guys, the Islamic bad heights guys come get you. Like Israel will come and work hard to save your ass because they appreciate you as a Jew. And even though you might not appreciate them as Israel, as a Jewish nation, Jews, wandering Jews, the Jewish nation will always appreciate you. And that is the fundamental bond between Judaism and Israel. That is a reason Israel exists. And history, as much as we don't want to admit it, history proves that Jews are never fund are never fully and fundamentally safe anywhere. And of course, the Peter Binarts of the world will say, well, Jews aren't really safe in Israel. Well, yeah, it's a different kind of safety. But fundamentally, you know, I I was just in Israel, you know, in January, and I've been to Israel four times since October 7th. And I've spent vast amounts of time in Israel. And for the most part, Jews are safe in Israel. ⁓ it doesn't mean, of course, again, that all Jews must live there, all Jews must be there. But it's really important, I think, for Jews to understand that no matter how much they may try to distance or disassociate themselves, dissociate themselves with the Jewish nation, to how much Jews, some of these Jews might try to forsake the Jewish nation, the Jewish nation will never forsake them. And that is a very, very powerful, powerful message. And it's the reason why at the end of the day. I understand that we must defend Israel, we must and we must support it, because you know, I'm somebody who is very much a believer in Jewish continuity. I want Jews to be around in another thousand years. And you know, Israel is a core part of that, whether or not we agree with its politics or not, whether or not we support or don't support, you know, Benjamin Tanyahu or not. So I mean, one of the reasons why. Israel is so important to me is that I'm somebody who's had a who has a very complicated relationship with you know the American notions of identity and and and and sort of self-determination. You know, as some I'm somebody who's African American and Jewish. I've never been exactly black, I've never been exactly white, but I've always been Jewish. And this has been sort of a foundational element of my identity. And in Israel, it's sort of the only place in the world. Where I truly feel like everybody else. You know, in this country, in the United States, my competing identity is because of the of the of the relentless pressure that we place on identity and race in America. In Israel is somewhere where I actually am completely, you know, I I it just sort of doesn't really exist on a certain level. You know, unlike in America, I'm not the darkest Jew in the room wherever I go. But more importantly, like it doesn't really matter. That matters in Israel is that is that I'm Jewish and it provides a level of of I would say ease and and it's the only place I feel in some levels, except when I'm with my children, that I really feel like the the the true and authentic me because I don't have all of this pressure, all of this identity pressure that I'm kind of like battle with all the time. and it allows me also in some ways to be the Jew I want to be, because in America. No matter where I go, people, if I go to a Jewish space in this country, and I say this as a critique, not a criticism, I say this just as someone who's old and lived a long time. I'm basically, you know, I'm one of the few people that looks like me. And there's always sort of a curiosity or discomfort. And it's just like I don't often want to be around it, so I don't go to a lot of Jewish spaces in America. ⁓ which is fine. Like I'm still Jewish. It doesn't make any doesn't make any difference. The best part about being Jewish is all you have to do to be Jewish is just wake up. but In Israel, that doesn't really exist. I'm just like everybody else. And I'm able to be Jewish in a way and to feel Jewish in a way that doesn't really exist here. But it's not just me. Like any Jew can have that. You know, what's so great about being in Israel is that suddenly you're in this almost like tabular rasa of Jewishness, where sudden suddenly it's like everybody's Jewish. And because everybody's Jewish, you can be your own kind of Jew because everybody's their own kind of Jew, you know, because everybody's Jewish. It's like The first time I went to ⁓ the Caribbean when I was in college, it was astounding to go to an island. I went to the island of Grenada where everybody was black. You know, the prime minister was black, the garbage band was black, the hotelier was black, everybody was black. And you really saw that it gave a level of freedom of personal expression for the black people there that doesn't really exist in America. And the same thing in Israel. It's like with everybody being Jewish, all of a sudden, now. For me, it's it's sort of a unique manifestation of this, and there's a kind of almost element of the sublime for me because I don't feel it in the US. I mean, Israel is the only place I would say where I actually feel like I experience privilege, you know, and I'm very aware of the price of that privilege. There are folks in Israel who don't experience privilege, and I'm completely aware of that. I don't live in some fantasy world. But I'm saying that this sense of of you know unique Jewish self-determination, for me, it manifests in one way. But it can manifest for all Jews if they just allow it to. And I think that's actually one of the kind of magical elements of folks who sort of wind up in Israel and are sort of like, why can't I quit? You it's like Israel's like this like boyfriend or girlfriend, you just can't quit. You know, like, why can't I quit this place? You know, because it just feels so good, you know, because you're feeling like for the first time that you are actually part of ⁓ a society with. very deep meaning and the things you do have meaning and there's a connectiveness. You know, even though when I'm in Israel, I'm constantly overwhelmed by the sense of can of of the connectedness, of the connection between the society. And I think a lot of Israelis was will bemoan that, ⁓ we've lost that and we're losing that and the country's become very cynical and blah, blah, blah. But I I don't see that. I still see a country that's incredibly connected. And that not just that, but wants to create connections with other people other Jews and wants to bring them into that world of connectedness, of connection. And there's deep meaning in that. You know, I love being in Israel and asking, you know, I I have a ⁓ very close friend whose father survived the Holocaust and wound up in Palestine. I love asking his dad, you know, 70 years ago, you know, you you you you took a boat from Eastern Europe, you all your family was was murdered. You wound up in like, you know, the port, the port in North Tel Aviv in a country that didn't exist. Then what happened? Like you got off the boat, and literally, what happened? Like, where'd you go? How'd you get there? Was there a camel? Like, I love all of these stories of these people because they're still they're all our people. You know, we're all one people. And it's really important to remember that the folks, the enemies aligned against us. We talk a lot about honest reporting with what you do and the honesty question. What is really honestly their goal is to divide us. They want to divide us, and they want to divide us and they want to conquer us and they want to kill us. And they've said it and they've done it and they will do it again. And in order, the most important weapon we have in preventing that is us. We must resist that attempt at division by any means possible. And the most important thing that we have in our arsenal is the truth. And there is a fundamental truth here. And I am one. who is is completely committed and devoted to upholding that truth as much as possible.

speaker-1: Amazing. David, thank you so much. If the double standard is anti-Semitism, then accountability matters, and that's what we do. And you can find plenty more of it at honestreporting.com. If you enjoyed this episode of The Honest, take like and subscribe for more and follow us on social media at Honest Reporting. Thanks for watching.